Curse

jaximus · Oct 20, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Shitty teams get better by fighting and winning against bad teams.
Bad teams get better by fighting and winning against mediocre teams.
Mediocre teams get better by fighting and winning against good teams.
Good teams get better by fighting and winning against great teams.
Great teams get better by fighting and winning against godly teams.

this is true, but the allure of a shitty team making a splash in an mAT and getting that trim leads them to the gimmicks. the top teams have 8 players that all do their role. the confidence among each other stimulates success. are you saying at team of 7 very good players shouldnt be able to compete with them because of 1 players short comings? maybe they cant get that 8th player cuz they dont have the recognition or ladder rank. in a gimmick those 7 can make up for that 8th player by targeting a weakness or flaw in another teams tactics/skills. maybe then after this gimmick they will get that trim/that rank/that win in an mAT/that rating so they can pull that 8th player, the final piece away from another team.

Winterclaw · Oct 20, 2008, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And this is what SR and E do.
They allow a player to perform much better then they should had they had to worry about energy.
And that's why they are bad and need to die.

QFT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like I said - when you start molding the game to suit the mediocre masses - you end up with GW PvE. And nobody likes GW PvE in it's current state.

Exactly, if people wanted to play the current PvE, they would. As it happens, PvE isn't exactly flourishing anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla

Easy-to-run builds shouldn't be strong at all. There has to be breakpoints where you need to be more skillful to actually run it for greater efficiency.

Ever play any of the virtua fighter games? Sarah is an easy to use character and good for beginners because you need to master the basics to win with her. However you don't see her at the upper levels as much. She is easy to use, but a harder to learn character like Akira can do so much more damage in the hands of someone who really knows how to use him. Most people start with the easier characters and once they start to level off, move on to a character that is harder to use, but they can get more out of.

As I see it, skill and ability balance in GW should sort of be like that. It's fine if there are skills or lines that ease the newer player into the game, but they can't be so powerful that they ruin the game.

Imagine if power spike or power drain were 1e, 1/8cast, 0recharge. That'd completely ruin the game. Right now, they are useful but you have to be good enough to pick your use of them to get the most out of those skills.

jaximus · Oct 20, 2008, 07:37 PM // 19:37

back to talking about soul reaping and expertise...
as for expertise, look at sins and dervs, they get 4 pips of regen while the ranger gets 3. expertise balances this. if you really think soul reaping and expertise are that big of a problem see atrophy (http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Atrophy) buff this skill so the duration is longer and then your problem is solved. easy fix

Tyla · Oct 20, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Soul Reaping is only good for Foul Feast in PvP. Expertise doesn't "balance" that, and it gives you the ability to roll your face across the keyboard because the energy management is so good, without even paying attention to your energy bar.

Trylo · Oct 20, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

after reading the majority of Raul's and Upier's posts, i must say i agree more with Upier...even though he didnt reference a few of the really glaringly wrong points Raul made.

well is this thread going to become a war between the right and wrong, or actual suggestions. from here it could go either way.

@Jaximus' last post:
1 pip of regen is 1 energy every 3 seconds. expertise is obviously a lot better than that. to match that: it could be one 5e skill every 6(9) seconds, one 10e skill every 12(15) seconds.

a good comparison would be an ele. when do they ever leave home without an attunement? expertise is literally a passive attunement (but better when more than 9 points).

jaximus · Oct 20, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

the comparison to elementalists' attunements is a good idea. although the nature of rangers and eles are entirely different. elementalists are used more in a pre-calculated role and long recharges on many skills dampen this, also glyths and attunes exist. rangers are responsive. many ranger skills have rather short recharges. rangers play a support/shutdown role. rangers need skills now, you cant tell the opposition to wait so you can be ready to interrupt them. expertise is fine.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 21, 2008, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla

That was merely an example. A Shock Axe is a multi-functional build that utilizes the heavy utility of Disrupting Chop, Bull's Strike and Shock. You also have to be smart about when you're using Frenzy. This bar isn't "hit IAS and train a target", whereas RaO is, with RaO giving you a speedboost aswell.

And I was merely extending your example. Notice I agreed that RaO was broken… it needs to be made a stance or given a shorter duration or something.

But let me put it this way: we can agree that the skill Frenzy is balanced (merely an example again), correct? It provides a great boost to IAS potential, but it also comes with the cost of leaving the user very susceptible to being spiked. Because of this tradeoff it requires tactical sense as to when it can be activated safely as well as knowing when it needs to be canceled. All in all it’s a balanced concept.

Now look at gimmicky spike builds. Damage heavy ones supplement their damage output heavily (analogous to the IAS), but in doing so sacrifice some of their defensive potential (analogous to the double damage penalty). Again, there is a tradeoff, and adding 1 (or two or three) offensive skill in lieu of 1 (or two or three) defensive skill keeps this tradeoff relatively proportional. Furthermore, these builds are only successful in certain situations, which essentially means you have to deploy them tactically (much like choosing when to activate frenzy) in order to be successful. Running SF/SH Way against a ranger-heavy team is not going to turn out well 99% of the time. All in all there’s still the same tradeoffs that exist in a balanced state… it’s just a different means to the accomplish the same end goal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla

Easy-to-run builds shouldn't be strong at all. There has to be breakpoints where you need to be more skillful to actually run it for greater efficiency.

Most of these ‘easy-to-run builds’ would not be nearly as strong if people were simply willing to adjust rather than hide behind the excuse that a straight balanced team is the single greatest invention of all time and cannot possibly be improved upon. There’s guides all over the place on how to beat the many incarnations of IWAY/Zergway/Smiteball/Heroway/Sway/Ritspike/Bloodspike and so on; all of them had or have key weaknesses that can be countered rather easily. The problem is not that these ‘degenerate’ builds are exceptionally good, it’s that people would just rather not have to change what they’ve been doing since they started.

Furthermore, there’s a difference between ‘easy-to-run’ and ‘easy to run effectively.’ Sure, any idiot can run sway or rpsike because it’s easy to count to 3 and push a button. Any idiot can run an ‘easy’ build and lose, but it takes an idiot with slightly more intelligence to actually win with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla

Using your logic we should give D-Shot a 1 second recharge to make it "easy to use" too because that's "better for the game".

Yeah, sure, and let’s remove the aftercast delay, drop the energy requirement to 0, make it activate instantly like a stance and make the arrow fly 5x faster and provide an unblockable armor-ignoring damage boost like the original Sloth Hunter’s Shot had. Because clearly that’s what I’m calling for here.

There’s a difference between breaking a skill to make it overpowered (RaO) and breaking a skill to make it entirely useless (Smiter’s Boon). Nowhere have I encouraged more overpowering of skills, but rather I have argued that we should not break skills or attributes into uselessness (like, say Communing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyla

Also, if you're comparing the mass energy gain from SR and ER to the small heal of DF, I don't think you should be talking at all.

And

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

1 pip of regen is 1 energy every 3 seconds. expertise is obviously a lot better than that. to match that: it could be one 5e skill every 6(9) seconds, one 10e skill every 12(15) seconds.

At 13 expertise you save 52% of the energy cost of a non-spell skill. At 13 Divine Favor you get an instant and free healing bonus of 42, which is 66% of what you would get if you used a 5 energy spell like Orison of Healing at 13 healing (compare it to the base heal on Dwayna’s Kiss and this percentage goes higher). Since most ranger skills are 10 energy or less (save Apply Poison, Concussion Shot, and RaO) it saves the ranger at most 5.2 energy per skill… divine favor saves the monk 3.3 energy per monk skill. Not really much of a difference given that monks have that extra pip of regen and a naturally larger energy pool; Divine Favor is essentially a passive attunement. The original attributes for the core professions were and still are balanced by themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

a good comparison would be an ele. when do they ever leave home without an attunement? expertise is literally a passive attunement (but better when more than 9 points).

As an Ele you have an entire attribute line devoted solely to managing your already massive energy pool. Every other spellcasting class has access to energy management (even monks) skills and traits, too, even if they have to utilize their secondary. Warriors even get in on the action by having adrenaline to supplement their energy problems. Taking away the expertise from Rangers leaves them with prepared shot as the only viable energy management for PvP (Blowing your elite and prep on Scavenger's Focus and Marksman's Wager? Hell no given that rangers nowadays are primarily condition spreaders if they're not rangerspike). Plus, they're limited in terms of how they can use their secondaries for e-management, as mending tough is about the only spell a ranger ever takes; things like channeling and GoLE only apply to skills and are thus useless to a ranger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Shitty teams get better by fighting and winning against bad teams.
Bad teams get better by fighting and winning against mediocre teams.
Mediocre teams get better by fighting and winning against good teams.
Good teams get better by fighting and winning against great teams.
Great teams get better by fighting and winning against godly teams.

Yes, but if

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Bad players do have the right to get better.
But bad players do not have the right to win over good players.

The ceiling is set so that nobody can ever progress. Good and bad are relative terms, so even when you’re pitting ‘shit’ teams against ‘bad’ teams, one is still ‘good’ when compared to the other. It becomes a paradox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Like I said - when you start molding the game to suit the mediocre masses - you end up with GW PvE. And nobody likes GW PvE in it's current state.

And when you mold the game to suit the elitists who already have their position solidified you still condemn the masses to mediocrity. The elite have a vested interest in remaining at the top, do they not? Catering to them is just a different means to the same end, really. Nobody other than the elite PvPers will like the state of PvP if they can't find success. Like it or not, the masses are what fuel the business side of things... bigger audience = bigger profits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

SR and E do not need a PvP version.
They need to be killed and rebuilt from the ground up. Because there is just nothing in this game that would justify PvE having access to something as obscene as SR/E. (Don't get me wrong - there ARE other issues. Leadership WTF?!?!? But here the idea of buffing SR/E is being entertained.)

I see no need for a split either, but I also see no need for these core professions to be changed. In no way am I intending to argue that either should be buffed, just that they shouldn’t be nerfed. The attributes of the core professions (why I didn’t mention Paras, Dervs, Sins or Rits previously) are still fine from what I can tell; the interactions with the subsequent additions are the problem; they are the ones that need to be fixed. Soul Reaping wasn’t changed until N/Rt healers abused the hell out of it… prior to Rits there was no problem with it (in PvP at least, where full MM’s are not common and spirit spammers did not yet exist in the modern sense, and I don’t recall anyone in PvE complaining). Expertise was not a problem until people starting using scythes with it. Someone puts together the original Sway team and suddenly the entire attribute needs to be reworked? I disagree. The attribute isn’t allowing the attack skills to be abused in a way different from an other 5 energy skill rangers use; the problem is simply that people don’t want to adapt.

Oh, and I haven’t said it until now, but maybe it will help clarify (especially for the tl;dr crowd out there:
/notsigned for a PvE-PvP split for Expertise and/or Soul Reaping
/notsigned for a buff to either
/notsigned for a nerf to either

Trylo · Oct 21, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

At 13 expertise you save 52% of the energy cost of a non-spell skill. At 13 Divine Favor you get an instant and free healing bonus of 42, which is 66% of what you would get if you used a 5 energy spell like Orison of Healing at 13 healing (compare it to the base heal on Dwayna’s Kiss and this percentage goes higher). Since most ranger skills are 10 energy or less (save Apply Poison, Concussion Shot, and RaO) it saves the ranger at most 5.2 energy per skill… divine favor saves the monk 3.3 energy per monk skill. Not really much of a difference given that monks have that extra pip of regen and a naturally larger energy pool; Divine Favor is essentially a passive attunement. The original attributes for the core professions were and still are balanced by themselves.

DF is not a good comparison. since in my examples with expertise im using 9, i will use the same for DF. with WoH (+180), DF(+30) adds 16% healing. i can throw percentages for heals around too, it doesnt mean much. its really not that great of an attribute, and using healing prayers (especially orison) as an example just shows ignorance to proper monk play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

As an Ele you have an entire attribute line devoted solely to managing your already massive energy pool.

wait, what? which one, im confused, eles dont have inspiration? unless you mean the horrible options in estorage, im lost. except for GoLE.

theres a huge difference between using a skill slot to have a measly GoLE (1.5 pips) than compared to a *passive* attunement which should give a lot more than 1.5pips. GoLE also takes your secondary, like many emanagement options. rangers dont NEED a 2ndary for energy when they have expertise, unless youre doing something VERY wrong. also i never suggested taking away expertise, dont make baseless accusations.

Trylo · Oct 21, 2008, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

At 13 expertise you save 52% of the energy cost of a non-spell skill. At 13 Divine Favor you get an instant and free healing bonus of 42, which is 66% of what you would get if you used a 5 energy spell like Orison of Healing at 13 healing (compare it to the base heal on Dwayna’s Kiss and this percentage goes higher). Since most ranger skills are 10 energy or less (save Apply Poison, Concussion Shot, and RaO) it saves the ranger at most 5.2 energy per skill… divine favor saves the monk 3.3 energy per monk skill. Not really much of a difference given that monks have that extra pip of regen and a naturally larger energy pool; Divine Favor is essentially a passive attunement. The original attributes for the core professions were and still are balanced by themselves.

DF is not a good comparison. since in my examples with expertise im using 9, i will use the same for DF. with WoH (+180), DF(+30) adds 16% healing. i can throw percentages for heals around too, it doesnt mean much. its really not that great of an attribute, and using healing prayers (especially orison) as an example just shows ignorance to proper monk play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

As an Ele you have an entire attribute line devoted solely to managing your already massive energy pool.

wait, what? which one, im confused, eles dont have inspiration? unless you mean the horrible options in estorage, im lost. except for GoLE.

theres a huge difference between using a skill slot to have a measly GoLE (1.5 pips) than compared to a *passive* attunement which should give a lot more than 1.5pips. GoLE also takes your secondary, like many emanagement options. rangers dont NEED a 2ndary for energy when they have expertise, unless youre doing something VERY wrong. also i never suggested taking away expertise, dont make baseless accusations.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 21, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

DF is not a good comparison. since in my examples with expertise im using 9, i will use the same for DF. with WoH (+180), DF(+30) adds 16% healing. i can throw percentages for heals around too, it doesnt mean much. its really not that great of an attribute, and using healing prayers (especially orison) as an example just shows ignorance to proper monk play.

There's a reason WoH is elite: it's better than the comparable non-elites. Also, the base heal on WoH is not 180... that's counting the bonus conditional heal. There are no bonuses to Expertise or Divine Favor that reflect health levels or any other condition other than the number of attribute points invested in them, so including bonuses that have no analogous function to the other is completely useless. The base is 105 at 12 healing, which still equates a 27.6% bonus (29/105), or a savings of 1.4 energy per cast. That's 1.4 energy per second if you cast nonstop (again, theoretically... not that you would) which is greater than the 1.5 pips of regen you hold so dear.

Also there's no difference between the divine favor bonus for healing and the divine favor bonus for protting, so saying using healing as the example makes it irrelevant is itself irrelevant. If you're protting you're simply saving the healer this energy, so the aggregate effect is exactly the same. As for using Orison as the example (also mentioned D-kiss, btw), I chose that because it was an instant 5 energy cast spell that does not require any further stipulation (like a half cast range) and it leaves out all other conditional bonuses. It's simply the purest (from an example standpoint) 5 energy heal out there... as we're dealing with Rangers abusing attack skills (or toucher ones) from other classes that more often than not cost 5 base energy to activate puts it on an even level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

wait, what? which one, im confused, eles dont have inspiration? unless you mean the horrible options in estorage, im lost. except for GoLE.

You get a specific attunement skill for each element that returns more energy with even 0 points invested in that line (not that you ever would), which outclasses expertise until r8. Then, the attribute itself provides you a massive pool of energy. GoLE is a great non-elite skill from that line, and prior to the fast-casting Icy Shackles, Elemental Attunement, Ether Renewal, and Ether Prodigy all saw play in non-water spikes or utility healing roles. And yes, there is always the option to use secondary classes to manage energy, but as I pointed out this is not the case for rangers. Which leads to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

theres a huge difference between using a skill slot to have a measly GoLE (1.5 pips) than compared to a *passive* attunement which should give a lot more than 1.5pips. GoLE also takes your secondary, like many emanagement options. rangers dont NEED a 2ndary for energy when they have expertise, unless youre doing something VERY wrong. also i never suggested taking away expertise, dont make baseless accusations.

Uhh.... duh? I'm saying that rangers would require secondary profession energy management if expertise is taken away, not that they need it now... that is the upside to choosing a ranger primary. I have no idea where you got that that I meant anything to the contrary. Also at no point did I say "Trylo, you specifically called for the complete (or even partial) removal of expertise." At no point did I even imply that you specifically said anything along those lines, nor even comment indirectly on whether or not you were in favor of changing anything or not. I'll continue to not make baseless accusations so long as you continue to not take baseless offense to imagined allegations.

Winterclaw · Oct 21, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Raul, your attempting to compare DF to expertise is a little weak considering DF only works on monk skills and then only on ones that affect allies. DF doesn't work with Rit or Derv heals. Expertise on the other hand works on all attacks as well as touch skills, rituals, and every ranger skill. DF is much more limited in use compared to expertise.

Quote:

The original attributes for the core professions were and still are balanced by themselves.

No way. Fast casting and energy storage are very limited past a certain investment. FC has use if a mes uses a secondary caster prof, ES much less. However more energy is not the answer and FC doesn't make spells cheaper to cast or give you back a ton of energy. Strength is kind of bad because it only works with attack skills; the extra damage from attack skills ignore armor anyways so the bonus it provides is more or less useless. When you look at all of them Soul Reaping and Expertise seem like the best in terms of what they give you and the conditions on which you get them.

Quote:

As an Ele you have an entire attribute line devoted solely to managing your already massive energy pool.

One glyph that takes forever to recharge and a few elite spells hardly count. I mean rangers aren't forced to use any elite slots on their skill bar in order to reduce their energy use.

Quote:

You get a specific attunement skill for each element that returns more energy with even 0 points invested in that line (not that you ever would), which outclasses expertise until r8. Then, the attribute itself provides you a massive pool of energy.

A few things.
1. Elemental attument spells are easily stripped and take forever to recharge. Thus you can deal with that pretty easily if you are expecting an el. There are only a few skills that can lower the bonus to expertise.
2. Attuments only work with el spells. Expertise works with a lot of junk.
3. Attunements require a slot on your bar to use, expretise doesn't.
4. That massive pool of energy takes time to recharge and can be e-denied. Also it isn't energy management. Expertise works all the time.

Quote:

I'm saying that rangers would require secondary profession energy management if expertise is taken away

Which should hint to you how powerful expertise is and why it needs to be reworked.

upier · Oct 21, 2008, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

The ceiling is set so that nobody can ever progress. Good and bad are relative terms, so even when you’re pitting ‘shit’ teams against ‘bad’ teams, one is still ‘good’ when compared to the other. It becomes a paradox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

And when you mold the game to suit the elitists who already have their position solidified you still condemn the masses to mediocrity. The elite have a vested interest in remaining at the top, do they not? Catering to them is just a different means to the same end, really. Nobody other than the elite PvPers will like the state of PvP if they can't find success. Like it or not, the masses are what fuel the business side of things... bigger audience = bigger profits.

Why wouldn't they be able to progress?
If you have a shitty team going against a godly one - the shitty team loses. Hard and fast.
If on the other hand you have a good team going against a godly team - the good team should still lose.
Just not that hard and not that fast. And that extra time should give them the ability to actually learn something.
And the better one gets - the more time you have to learn.

Yes, the masses should be catered to.
But catering the masses isn't the same thing as handing them everything on a plate.
If we are dealing with a competitive game - then some NEED to be worse then others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

I see no need for a split either, but I also see no need for these core professions to be changed. In no way am I intending to argue that either should be buffed, just that they shouldn’t be nerfed.

The issue is that you have energy-based classes which pretty much aren't limited by their energy bar or aren't limited to the extent that they should be. While SR pretty much has no downside - rangers with their inability to play spellcasters aren't hurt enough to justify the superb e-management that E offers for skills that it has an effect on.
You know there is an issue when the passive effect of a selected line outshines GOOD elites that have the same purpose.

Numa Pompilius · Oct 21, 2008, 11:21 AM // 11:21

I agree that Expertise is a problem as it encourages degenerate builds, but i still don't see that Soul Reaping is a problem in PvP.
Things don't die often enough that you get infinite energy in PvP with SR (like Sabway/Discordway do in PvE thanks to minions).

For necros in PvP I'd say it's easier, and more reliable, to gain energy through skills which provide energy when used (like Angorodons Gaze, Foul Feast, or even Mesmer Inspiration skills) than the Soul Reaping energy gain.

Also, necros on BOTH teams gain energy when something dies.

I'm all in favor of doing something about Expertise, although I don't know what one could do without completely breaking it, but I really see no reason to do anything about Soul Reaping.

jaximus · Oct 21, 2008, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I agree that Expertise is a problem as it encourages degenerate builds

prove this. and what do you mean by degenerate?
touchers, expert daggers, thumpers, rao with an axe, escape/scythe are you what mean, correct?
touchers-> diversion, degen, snare. theyve been around for so long if you dont know how to beat them, uninstall
expert dags-> hi im crit strikes, i do the exact same thing!
thumpers-> its RaO thats broken, not expertise, also, no defense, please anti melee hex me. also, everyone complains about how dumb pets are in pvp. pets attack through ss/empathy and when they die, adrenaline is gone, and if they spend time rezzing pets, they arent hurting you.(pets get dp you know) you cant activate RaO if youre pet is dead, and with no pet, theres no daze
RaO with an axe-> see thumper
escape/scythe-> uses broken derv skills, also what about sin crit scythe? same energy management, but higher damage
i do not see expertise as a problem, if you want to complain about attack spam then what about experts dexterity/rtw and the power/sunder/penetrating attacks? is that degenerative also? didnt anet just change that skill? i think so...

Numa Pompilius · Oct 21, 2008, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

prove this. and what do you mean by degenerate?
touchers, expert daggers, thumpers, rao with an axe, escape/scythe are you what mean, correct?

Basically, yeah.

Quote:

if you dont know how to beat them, uninstall

I do know how to beat them, even though it's not always easy to pull off. That they can be beat doesn't change anything - they're still builds based on exploiting the way expertise works.

Raul the Rampant · Oct 22, 2008, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

attempting to compare DF to expertise is a little weak considering DF only works on monk skills and then only on ones that affect allies. DF doesn't work with Rit or Derv heals. Expertise on the other hand works on all attacks as well as touch skills, rituals, and every ranger skill. DF is much more limited in use compared to expertise.

Ok, then I’ll compare it to the other primary attributes. Fast Casting works on every spell and signet that belongs to any class. Strength applies to attack skills with any martial weapon regardless it’s native class. The larger energy pool you get from Energy Storage can be used for any skill regardless of class. Soul Reaping triggers when anything dies, not just something Necro based. Spawning power applies to any summoned creature, regardless of whether it is Rit, Ranger or Necro based. Critical Strikes (just like strength) applies to any martial weapon. Mysticism triggers on any enchantment regardless of the class line that it comes from. Even leadership triggers on shouts that don’t originate in the Paragon line. The fact that expertise applies to non-Ranger skills puts it at the same level as everything else in that regard. Based on this the argument should be to buff Divine Favor rather than to nerf Expertise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Fast casting and energy storage are very limited past a certain investment.

So does everything else. They’re called break points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Strength is kind of bad because it only works with attack skills; the extra damage from attack skills ignore armor anyways so the bonus it provides is more or less useless.

Put it on a weapon with a ridiculous critical range like a scythe and then what? Not to mention that it cancels out most or all of a shield set on casters on those all important 1-2-3 spike of Evis-executioner-disrupting chop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

One glyph that takes forever to recharge and a few elite spells hardly count.

The long recharges on the expensive spells (the ones you actually use the glyph for as an ele) are longer than the recharge on the glyph making that not matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

I mean rangers aren't forced to use any elite slots on their skill bar in order to reduce their energy use.

Name one class that deals physical damage that does have to use energy management skills, elite or not. Warriors have adrenaline so they don’t have to worry about their energy management. Assassins have critical strikes (not to mention using a zealous set on one with an IAS for even a few seconds fills the bar up) so they don’t have to worry about taking along a secondary energy management; even Deadly Arts ones have plenty of sigs to play with so energy isn’t an issue. Dervishes don’t need secondary energy management because mysticism kicks back plenty and their attack skills are so strong they don’t need sustained energy control anyway. Paragons get to use adrenaline, too, but then get the overpowered benefit of being able to convert that directly to huge amounts of energy. All of the other non-caster professions don’t have to actively worry about their energy management, so why should rangers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

A few things.
1. Elemental attument spells are easily stripped and take forever to recharge. Thus you can deal with that pretty easily if you are expecting an el. There are only a few skills that can lower the bonus to expertise.
2. Attuments only work with el spells. Expertise works with a lot of junk.
3. Attunements require a slot on your bar to use, expretise doesn't.
4. That massive pool of energy takes time to recharge and can be e-denied. Also it isn't energy management. Expertise works all the time.

1. Oh, so you actually have to pay attention to what’s going on around you to know if you’re in danger of having it stripped? And tactically employ a cheap cover enchant?

2. Expertise only works with non-spells. There’s a limited number of those, too. Only a few skills can lower the benefits of an attunement that's active, too.

3. The ability to use adrenaline or have a base armor penetration rating does not require a skill slot. That much larger energy pool does not require a skill slot. The ability to use fast casting does not require a skill slot. The divine favor bonus does not require a skill slot. In fact none of the primary attributes (or even basic attributes) require skill slots. Thus the reason they’re attributes.

4. If you keep a ranger’s energy at 0 Expertise won’t do anything for the ranger either; it doesn't make them free, just cheaper. Also, it's much easier to drain an energy pool of 25 with no e-management skills than it is to drain a pools of 90+ with e-management skills and a wide array of energy manipulating wands/offhands/staves. Long spell recharges mean you don’t need a full pool all the time as an ele. And again, that’s where battlefield awareness and whatnot are important, as you'll know when to hide some energy and swap weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

While SR pretty much has no downside - rangers with their inability to play spellcasters aren't hurt enough to justify the superb e-management that E offers for skills that it has an effect on.

Well then the fact that warriors aren’t spellcasters doesn’t justify the superb energy management that warriors have in adrenaline. A warrior with 0 energy can still use plenty of skills; a ranger with 0 energy cannot. Also, this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

For necros in PvP I'd say it's easier, and more reliable, to gain energy through skills which provide energy when used (like Angorodons Gaze, Foul Feast, or even Mesmer Inspiration skills) than the Soul Reaping energy gain.

Also, necros on BOTH teams gain energy when something dies.

^^ Why Soul Reaping does not require adjustment. It is a two-way street as both teams have an equal opportunity to benefit in any instance of something dying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I agree that Expertise is a problem as it encourages degenerate builds

Broken skills are what encourage degenerate builds. Expertise did not encourage BB sins, a ridiculous KD time with 0 investment in Hammer Mastery did. Expertise did not encourage those scythe assassins, a broken Way Of The Assassin did. Expertise did not encourage the broken RaO builds, RaO did. Expertise did not encourage touchers, the fact that Vamp Bite and Vamp Touch are skills instead of spells did. The problem is the skills, not the attribute.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius

I do know how to beat them, even though it's not always easy to pull off. That they can be beat doesn't change anything

This is nothing more than another incarnation for the pro-ursan argument: “I know how to clear the elite areas, but it’s not always easy.” By making it easier for people who don’t want to beat gimmicks you’re dumbing the game down for everyone, even them. The good teams won't get any better, either, if you take these things away and make everything easier for them.

Winterclaw · Oct 22, 2008, 03:26 AM // 03:26

1. Fast casting makes things cast faster, not cheaper or more powerful. Also there are enough mesmer skills which delay cast time if you have an interrupter in the group.
2. Energy storage has its limits or else e/rits would be as common as n/rits. They aren't for a reason.
3. If you read this thread, people have asked for SR to be changed as well.
4. More health for summoned creatures is kind of weak. Giving a minion that is hard to aquire in pvp and quick to die a little more HP is worse than having extra energy. Rit minion bombers don't exist in pvp for a reason and I don't think you can run sabway with two rits replacing two of the necros.
5. CS usually requires at least one skill to buff it to get extra critical hits, the energy gain is random, and there are plenty of skills to keep an assassin from hitting others.
6. Mysticism only triggers on enchanments applied to you, you have to either wait until they end or use a skill to end them, and if you aren't enchanted, it's useless. If you recast something before the enchantment ends, no energy for you.
7. Strength buffs the non bonus damage from an attack skill by a little. If you want to use non-warrior energy skills, you essentially have to give up your one elite slot to do so. Rangers don't have to give up an elite.
8. Paragons are called imbagons for a reason. Some warrior skills were nerfed becaue leadership was either poorly thought out or poorly implemented. Paragons got a fair number of nerfs as well because of it.

Quote:

Put it on a weapon with a ridiculous critical range like a scythe and then what? Not to mention that it cancels out most or all of a shield set on casters on those all important 1-2-3 spike of Evis-executioner-disrupting chop.

Criticals can't be counted on happening and even for non-crits the caster comes out ahead than he would if he didn't have the shield.

Quote:

The long recharges on the expensive spells (the ones you actually use the glyph for as an ele) are longer than the recharge on the glyph making that not matter.

That still doesn't account for the fact that the ranger doesn't have to waste a slot like the el does.

Quote:

Name one class that deals physical damage that does have to use energy management skills, elite or not. Warriors have adrenaline so they don’t have to worry about their energy management. Assassins have critical strikes (not to mention using a zealous set on one with an IAS for even a few seconds fills the bar up) so they don’t have to worry about taking along a secondary energy management; even Deadly Arts ones have plenty of sigs to play with so energy isn’t an issue. Dervishes don’t need secondary energy management because mysticism kicks back plenty and their attack skills are so strong they don’t need sustained energy control anyway. Paragons get to use adrenaline, too, but then get the overpowered benefit of being able to convert that directly to huge amounts of energy.

Warriors have to use an elite slot if they are going dagger or scythe for warrior's endurance. Assassins at least have to use critical eye for more crits, WotM if they are using something besides daggers. Unless the monk is constantly putting enchantments on a derv, they have to use a slot on their bar for an enchantment and get a portion of it back later. Now I don't think 3e from that one or two enchantments are going to cover for 3 or 4 attack skills. Paragons are problems in their own right.

Quote:

All of the other non-caster professions don’t have to actively worry about their energy management, so why should rangers?

All of the other caster professions besides necros have to actively manage their energy so why shouldn't necros (and rangers)?

In case you didn't realise, in PvP warriors just had FGJ nerfed on them because of BB sins. Thus it is harder for them to gain ade now. They can use frenzy, but then they have to take a cancel stance along with it. Rangers don't have to take both a stance and a cancel stance to use expertise.

Quote:

Oh, so you actually have to pay attention to what’s going on around you to know if you’re in danger of having it stripped? And tactically employ a cheap cover enchant?

Rangers don't have to waste a slot on their skill bar for "a cheap enchant" in order to keep another one in. As you are suggesting, els should be forced to have 2 spots on their bar wasted. And guess what? There are some skills that can strip more than one enchantment.

Quote:

Expertise only works with non-spells. There’s a limited number of those, too.

Yeah, there's only all of the weapon skills from warriors, dervs, assassins, paragons, and rangers that require energy...

Quote:

The ability to use adrenaline or have a base armor penetration rating does not require a skill slot. That much larger energy pool does not require a skill slot. The ability to use fast casting does not require a skill slot. The divine favor bonus does not require a skill slot. In fact none of the primary attributes (or even basic attributes) require skill slots. Thus the reason they’re attributes.

1. Ade takes awhile to build up and is useless except for some warrior and paragon skills. Rangers can use it too if they take the right skill.
2. Managing an el's larger pool generally requires an attuement, GolE, and maybe mind blast. In fact because that pool is so large you need to pay a little more attention to keep it up.
3. Fast casting doesn't allow you to use a lot more spells than you would otherwise.
4. DF only gives a minor heal and it only works with some monk skills. It doesn't allow you to use WoH more often without using up your energy. It doesn't reduce the e-cost of heal party or aegis. If you have around 600 health like most people say you should, that 32 hp heal is about 5% of your total, compared to saving 60% of the energy cost of some attack.

upier · Oct 22, 2008, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Well then the fact that warriors aren’t spellcasters doesn’t justify the superb energy management that warriors have in adrenaline. A warrior with 0 energy can still use plenty of skills; a ranger with 0 energy cannot.

To quote myself:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The issue is that you have energy-based classes which pretty much aren't limited by their energy bar or aren't limited to the extent that they should be.

Is warrior a full-on energy class?
(But I guess your quote already answered that - so I don't see why you even brought it up.)

Raul the Rampant · Oct 22, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

1. Fast casting makes things cast faster, not cheaper or more powerful. Also there are enough mesmer skills which delay cast time if you have an interrupter in the group.
2. Energy storage has its limits or else e/rits would be as common as n/rits. They aren't for a reason.
3. If you read this thread, people have asked for SR to be changed as well.
4. More health for summoned creatures is kind of weak. Giving a minion that is hard to aquire in pvp and quick to die a little more HP is worse than having extra energy. Rit minion bombers don't exist in pvp for a reason and I don't think you can run sabway with two rits replacing two of the necros.
5. CS usually requires at least one skill to buff it to get extra critical hits, the energy gain is random, and there are plenty of skills to keep an assassin from hitting others.
6. Mysticism only triggers on enchanments applied to you, you have to either wait until they end or use a skill to end them, and if you aren't enchanted, it's useless. If you recast something before the enchantment ends, no energy for you.
7. Strength buffs the non bonus damage from an attack skill by a little. If you want to use non-warrior energy skills, you essentially have to give up your one elite slot to do so. Rangers don't have to give up an elite.
8. Paragons are called imbagons for a reason. Some warrior skills were nerfed becaue leadership was either poorly thought out or poorly implemented. Paragons got a fair number of nerfs as well because of it.

1. I thought mesmers had this amazing inspiration line with which to manage their energy, too? And reducing a 1 second cast spell into a half second cast doesn’t make those skills more powerful and harder to interrupt? Or even a longer spell like diversion or backfire… making those cast in half the time doesn’t make them much easier to deploy and more dangerous (read: powerful) against a caster?

2. E/Mo’s used to be pretty common (with copies of aegis most of the time). N/Rt’s replaced them because A) rit healing spells heal for more to compensate for the lack of any Divine Favor-esque bonus, B) things like Spirit Light and some of the ashes that require the occasional health sacking naturally lend themselves to Necros, and C) the presence of spirits benefits them. Steps were already taken to mitigate this, though, and since only rit skills are abused in this way the problem is in that line rather the in Soul Reaping.

3. And reading my posts shows that I’ve included my thoughts on that, too. I’ve focused on Expertise more, but Soul Reaping has come up.

4. The point of the argument was that Spawning Power has several applications outside of the Ritualist line, just as any primary attribute not named Divine Favor… whether or not it is actually a decent attribute line is a different matter. If someone has an issue with how Spawning Power is set up I suggest they go to one of the numerous threads on that and talk about it there. As was just said above, this is about changing Expertise and Soul Reaping. I’ve not seriously advocated changing the other ones here, simply mentioned them as an example.

5. Alright, if the essentially 1 in 3 chance of criticalling one has with 12 CS and 12 weapon mastery isn’t enough (which is far better than any other class has, especially considering the chances of double-striking on non-attack skills) take one of those other skills that buff this chance further and consider the assassin version of an attunement skill. Plus, those skills that keep assassins from hitting people are the exact same ones that can be used to prevent a warrior or ranger or paragon or dervish or any other melee/ranged attack from hitting.

6. Yes, the enchants do have to end… wow, could it be that that’s why so many of the dervish attack skills cause the person to lose an enchantment? Or the self heal skills? Or the IAS or speed of movement buffs? Then if there's a monk there's Patient Spirit and/or Reversal of Fortune floating around constantly… too bad those last forever... Also it’s not like Expertise applies to all skills used by any members of your party, only skills that that person uses his/herself, so arguing that mysticism is weaker because only enchants on the dervish count is frivolous.

7. Alright, if someone insists on running a caster build with that tiny energy pool and two pips of regen then they deserve to sacrifice their elite… and I’d say the exact same thing for a Ranger. Plus I don’t see how they could possibly make room on a skill bar for a 10 energy skill when they have to spend so much of your energy fueling that Eviscerate -> Executioner’s Chop -> Disrupting Chop spike that’s so prevalent… oh wait, it requires 5 energy by itself and 5 more if frenzy is used to load it up (costs only 5 if they choose flail).

8. Again, if my posts are actually read I came out and said Leadership is overpowered, but (yet again) this thread is about changing Expertise and Soul Reaping so elaborating on the problems with Leadership is an issue for another time and place. Even so, despite the nerfs they’re clearly still intended (just like any other class that uses martial weapons) to not require energy management from the casting professions. Making rangers the sole exception to this simply because people don’t like Sway or RaO is even poorer implementation than caused Leadership to turn out as it did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Criticals can't be counted on happening and even for non-crits the caster comes out ahead than he would if he didn't have the shield.

Two separate thoughts there, but I’ll go with it. Who needs a critical every time when they’re pumping out a base damage (pre-attack skill bonus) 60+ on a not crit with a customized scythe? Still hurts plenty without a crit every time. Sure the caster comes out better than he would if he didn’t have the shield, but the warrior also comes out ahead compared to where he’d be if he didn’t have the extra penetration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

That still doesn't account for the fact that the ranger doesn't have to waste a slot like the el does.

Nor does it account for the fact that no other martial weapon wielding class does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Unless the monk is constantly putting enchantments on a derv, they have to use a slot on their bar for an enchantment and get a portion of it back later

Again, RoF and Patient Spirit are pretty common these days. If a derv is actually fighting something he or she is going to take some damage that the monks are going to have to mitigate. Also, since the dervish enchantments all have bonuses when they’re casted and when they expire (and many for their duration as well) going into a fight as a dervish without one of you damage buffers (whether it makes you deal different damage, attack/move faster, apply extra conditions, protect you from conditions/foes with conditions, etc.) is pretty non-sensical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Now I don't think 3e from that one or two enchantments are going to cover for 3 or 4 attack skills.

And yet the 3 energy a ranger saves on one or two skills (with 13 Expertise) is going to cover 3 or 4 attack skills? And dervishes even get an extra pip of regen to help compensate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

All of the other caster professions besides necros have to actively manage their energy so why shouldn't necros (and rangers)?

As it was already pointed out something has to die in order for Soul Reaping to kick in. Prolonged periods of time where nothing dies require Necros to manage their energy like everyone else. Also, I fail to see how Rangers qualify as a caster profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

PvP warriors just had FGJ nerfed on them because of BB sins. Thus it is harder for them to gain ade now. They can use frenzy, but then they have to take a cancel stance along with it. Rangers don't have to take both a stance and a cancel stance to use expertise.

Oh noes, I have to adapt! Plenty of warrior skills out there provide adrenaline bonuses upon strike, as do furious weapons. Any good warrior on a serious team takes frenzy and a cancel stance anyway, this is not at all a new development. Rangers don’t require taking multiple stances for adrenaline management, but they also don’t naturally have a use for adrenaline. Also, since most rangers take a stance or two anyway (natural stride or something similar for blocking and typically an IAS… like any other martial weapon wielding class) and don’t have the option of paying for them with adrenaline unless they’re a warrior secondary I fail to see how that’s relevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Rangers don't have to waste a slot on their skill bar for "a cheap enchant" in order to keep another one in. As you are suggesting, els should be forced to have 2 spots on their bar wasted. And guess what? There are some skills that can strip more than one enchantment.

By that logic hex builds are at a disadvantage because they have to bring cheap covers in order to make their’s stick, since there are skills that can remove more than one of those, too. Plus, with something as simple as Blinding Flash you force rangers to ‘waste’ a slot on a condition removal if they want any split capability. Put something like Blurred Vision on them and see how far they get in a split without ‘wasting’ a slot on some hex removal. Ele’s aren’t the only class that have to adjust what they do because of something the other team might do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Yeah, there's only all of the weapon skills from warriors, dervs, assassins, paragons, and rangers that require energy...

Yeah, and those poor Mesmers only get to access all of those spells from the monk/ele/necro/rit/assassin (spells)/dervish (spells) line, plus the signets from the monk/necro/rit/assassin/warrior/paragon/dervish/ranger lines for use with FC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

1. Ade takes awhile to build up and is useless except for some warrior and paragon skills. Rangers can use it too if they take the right skill.
2. Managing an el's larger pool generally requires an attuement, GolE, and maybe mind blast. In fact because that pool is so large you need to pay a little more attention to keep it up.
3. Fast casting doesn't allow you to use a lot more spells than you would otherwise.
4. DF only gives a minor heal and it only works with some monk skills. It doesn't allow you to use WoH more often without using up your energy. It doesn't reduce the e-cost of heal party or aegis. If you have around 600 health like most people say you should, that 32 hp heal is about 5% of your total, compared to saving 60% of the energy cost of some attack.

1. Expertise only comes in handy when Rangers are actually using skills. Adrenaline can be built up simply by pressing C + Spacebar. Sure, rangers can use adrenaline if they take a warrior secondary, but so can any other class.

2. Any caster class has the same issue in that they have to actually manage their pools of energy… it’s part of the tactical aspects. Yes you have to pay attention, but you also get to manipulate your pool size plenty during battle. You can swap out a 15% -5e weapon and a shield to hide 5 energy, then switch to a +15e –1 regen wand/offhand set for a sudden swing of 47 energy (assuming you had the -5 out and assuming you req the offhand and get the +12 bonus from that, too). Since rangers are martial weapon based the most they can manipulate their pool is 10 energy (15% -5e to +5e with no modifier). It’s much harder to use e-denial to completely shut down a good caster than it is to completely shut down a ranger (again Expertise makes things cheaper, not free).

3. Expertise doesn’t allow you to take more than 8 skills last I checked. Fast casters do not have to worry about blocking stances or being blinded, rangers using expertise do; rangers can use all the skills they want but if they get blocked or miss nothing comes of it. Mesmers don’t have to worry about their opponent’s armor mitigating their damage (unless it comes from the ele or rit line) and rangers with expertise do. Fast casting also has skills that make signets recharge faster, so in that sense it can allow them to use things more often than other classes; rangers have Serpeants Quickness and spirits, but those don’t req to expertise anyway, and in the case of the spirits have the same effect universally to all classes. In short, mesmer skills are much more likely to get through and have their desired effect (unless a ranger 'wastes' a skill slot to make himself unblockable, in which case see the section about cover enchants again).

4. Based on this argument DF should be buffed somehow to compensate for the fact that it only applies to some monk spells and put it in line with every other primary attribute that do have applications towards secondary professions, but once again, that is a matter for another discussion. Either way, in a sustained battle DF absolutely does allow you to cast targeted spells less often, especially against steady pressure/degen heavy teams; every 4 times you cast who the divine favor bonus adds up to the base cost of casting it a fifth time without you actually having to do so. What intelligent monk casts Heal Party or Aegis without using GoLE first? None, because that’s how caster energy management works; martial weapon classes are different. If Divine Favor lags behind the other primary attributes in it’s usefulness than adjust it to be in line with the rest; martyring another class and making two (or three if Soul Reaping gets euthanized, too) underpowered ones is not the answer.

@upier... I'm not sure where you are going with that. You said that rangers do not have to worry about the limitations that are supposed to be imposed by their energy pool, and I responded by providing an instance in which they are. Full e-denial on a ranger makes it unable to use skill regardless of much expertise he or she has. Then I proceeded to give an example as to how the other martial weapon classes have inherent fallbacks to guard against this. Being completely impotent with 0 energy and having fewer pool manipulation tools than casters seems like quite the limitation to me given that related classes do not face this same restriction; essentially that's hanging a ranger out to dry in a way that no other class is.

upier · Oct 22, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

@upier... I'm not sure where you are going with that. You said that rangers do not have to worry about the limitations that are supposed to be imposed by their energy pool, and I responded by providing an instance in which they are. Full e-denial on a ranger makes it unable to use skill regardless of much expertise he or she has. Then I proceeded to give an example as to how the other martial weapon classes have inherent fallbacks to guard against this. Being completely impotent with 0 energy and having fewer pool manipulation tools than casters seems like quite the limitation to me given that related classes do not face this same restriction; essentially that's hanging a ranger out to dry in a way that no other class is.

So the fact that a ranger with high E will only need to regen about half the cost of the skill before being able to use it isn't a fallback?
If you are to e-deny an assassin they either need to wait 4 secs to regen the energy before using a 5 energy skill or need to get lucky and critical.
If a dervy wants to use a 5 energy skill - they need to again wait and regen or get lucky and have an ench end on them.
If a ranger wants to use a 5 energy skill - they need to wait 2 secs to regen the energy.
On one side you have the option of scoring high with something non-predictable combined with a long wait if you do not get lucky - on the other side you have something predictable but without the possible highs NOR lows.

The big issue here though is - what happens when a class isn't e-denied.
Let's take a ranger being played bad and let's take an assassin being played bad. Are you seriously suggesting that an assassin that doesn't watch his energy will be able to perform on the same level as a ranger that doesn't watch his energy? Or will the ranger have an easier task?
That's the problem of E - it allows bad players that should have failed - to not fail at all or fail considerably later. Just as SR.